Questions On Baptism (2)

Question 6. WHAT ABOUT THE THIEF ON THE CROSS ? WHY CAN'T YOU ANSWER THIS ONE ? IS IT BECAUSE YOU DON'T HAVE AN ANSWER?

Answer As to this question and any other, in and of myself, I have no answers, but I believe the Word of God has the answer to this and other questions.  It is this Word that we should honestly and humbly explore and when truth is found, we should accept it and obey it, abandoning all false beliefs and opinions that would lead us away from the soul saving truth. The account you refer to is found in Luke 23:33-43.  This passage is used by many to "prove" that baptism (immersion in water) is not necessary for salvation.  If it was, then the thief who expressed his faith in Jesus and obviously repented of his sins, could not have been saved.  However, from the account we know that he was forgiven and would be with Jesus in Paradise.

Here is the account:

LUK 23:33 ¶ And when they came to the place called The Skull, there they crucified Him and the criminals, one on the right and the other on the left. LUK 23:34 But Jesus was saying, "Father, forgive them; for they do not know what they are doing."And they cast lots, dividing up His garments among themselves. LUK 23:35 And the people stood by, looking on. And even the rulers were sneering at Him, saying, "He saved others; let Him save Himself if this is the Christ of God, His Chosen One." LUK 23:36 And the soldiers also mocked Him, coming up to Him, offering Him sour wine, LUK 23:37 and saying, "If You are the King of the Jews, save Yourself!" LUK 23:38 Now there was also an inscription above Him, "THIS IS THE KING OF THE JEWS." LUK 23:39 ¶ And one of the criminals who were hanged there was hurling abuse at Him, saying, "Are You not the Christ? Save Yourself and us!" LUK 23:40 But the other answered, and rebuking him said, "Do you not even fear God, since you are under the same sentence of condemnation?

LUK 23:41 "And we indeed justly, for we are receiving what we deserve for our deeds; but this man has done nothing wrong." LUK 23:42 And he was saying, "Jesus, remember me when You come in Your kingdom!" LUK 23:43 And He said to him, "Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise."

From the account, we learn the following:

1.  Jesus and two thieves were crucified on this day.

2.  Jesus expressed His desire for the people and soldiers to be forgiven although they verbally abused Him.

3.  While one thief abused Him, the other acknowledged who He was and asked to be remembered by Him in His kingdom.

4.  Jesus proclaimed that He would be among the Comforted souls with Him in Paradise indicating that his sins would not be held against him.  Jesus had forgiven him. Now, from this passage, can we conclusively say that Jesus was teaching us that we can be forgiven without baptism in water?  Let us examine this further.

1.  It is clear that after Jesus was raised from the dead (having already been with the forgiven thief), He instructed His disciples what they should teach in order for both Jew and Gentile to be saved.

MAT 28:18 And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. MAT 28:19 "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, MAT 28:20 teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age. "

LUK 24:44 ¶ Now He said to them, "These are My words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things which are written about Me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled." LUK 24:45 Then He opened their minds to understand the Scriptures, LUK 24:46 and He said to them, "Thus it is written, that the Christ should suffer and rise again from the dead the third day; LUK 24:47 and that repentance for forgiveness of sins should be proclaimed in His name to all the nations, beginning from Jerusalem.

MAR 16:15 And He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. MAR 16:16 "He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.

2.  This is exactly what they taught after they had received power from the Holy Spirit who instructed them in all truth and gave them the power to perform miracles to confirm their word.  John 14:26, 16:12-15, Acts 2, especially verses 36-42.

3.  The baptism that was done was baptism in water, not in the Holy Spirit or anything else.  Acts 8:26-40.  What made this baptism significant was that Jesus Himself attaches forgives to this action as one believes in Him, turn from sins and confesses His name, he is baptized in water trusting that God will forgive him of his sins and raise him up to newness of life.  Romans 6:1-7, Col. 2:8-14.

Now, what about the thief on the cross who Jesus forgave without going through this process?  The answer is that while Jesus was on earth, He personally expressed His authority to forgive the sins of other as He willed to do so.  Therefore, in various instances, we see Him forgiving people in diverse circumstances.  Luke 7:36-50, Mark 2:1-12.

We notice especially in Mark's account where Jesus made clear that He was showing the Jews that He had power to forgive people while He was on earth.  And, the miracle that He performed on the paralyzed man, confirmed this was the case.

However, after He ascended into Heaven, He delegated authority to His apostles.   From that point on, we are to be saved by their word as we obey it.  John 17:20-21.  This word included being baptized in water along with believing, repenting and confessing Him to be the Son of God before witnesses.  The words that they speak are Jesus' words.  1 Cor. 14:37-40.

Therefore, as many would contend, there is no contradiction between what Jesus told the thief on the cross and what the apostles told thousands on the Day of Pentecost in Acts 2.   Why did God choose to do things this way?  Since God did not ask my, or anyone else's advice in how He should do things, this is really not a question that we should concern ourselves with.  Our concern should be obey God as He directs so that we might receive His mercy and eventually be with Him for eternity.

Let us carefully discern the word and not use the thief to void the word of Jesus' apostles as they preached to others.  Let us humbly follow their word and be saved.   Acts 2:36-38.  Contact Gary

Question 7. Any difference. between Submersion baptism and sprinkler water baptism?

Answer Good question.  There is so much confusion on this vital subject.  Many believe that there are different forms of baptism such as immersion, sprinkling and pouring.  However, when we examine the word itself and the practice of baptism in the New Testament, we see that there is only one proper form of baptism as it applies to one being baptized in order to receive forgiveness of sins.  Acts 2:36-38.

The word baptism comes from a Greek word, "baptizo", which means to dip, submerge or immerse.  The implication is clear.  It means to immerse to complete submerge, to place under.  The word has nothing to do with sprinkling or pouring.  

One of the reasons for the confusion comes from the way the original word was translated.  It was not actually translated but was transliterated, that is the Greek word was given and English form, baptizo became baptize.  However, this did no good in helping to explain the real meaning of the word.

Even if we did not know the meaning of the word, the Scriptures make it clear that this is an immersion in water, not sprinkling or any other form.  See Rom. 6:1-7, Acts 8:35-40, Col. 2:11-14, John 3:23.

If we are going to please God and submit in obedient faith to Him in order to receive forgiveness of sins, then we will be fully immersed in water as those were in the days of the apostles.  I hope and pray that not only you but all who read this might be willing to act in this way.  If you need further help, please let me know.  Contact Gary

Question 8. I disagree with your belief that unless a person is water baptized, he/she cannot go to heaven. I firmly believe that it is by faith alone in Christ Alone. References include: John 3:16, John 3:18, John 5:24, John 3:36, John 6:40, John 6:47, Acts 10:43, Acts 13:39, Acts 16:31, Romans 1:16-17, Romans 3:22, Romans 3:26, 28, 30, Romans 4:5,6, 24, Romans 5:1,9 Romans 10:6,8 Romans 10;9-11, Galatiams 2:16, Galatians 3:8, Galatians 3:24, Ephesians 2:8-9, Philippians 3:8

If water baptism were absolutely essential for salvation, how did the thief on the cross go to heaven(Luke 23:43)??? I believe that Scripture teaches sola fide and that water baptism is an act of obedience, but not essential for salvation.

Answer Thank you for your fine question and all the Scriptural references you make to prove your point.  As to the teaching that we are saved by grace through faith in Christ Jesus, I heartily agree.  However, our difference comes as to how this faith is supposed to behave in order for us to receive this grace, God's forgiveness of sins through the blood of Jesus.

From your statements, you believe that baptism, rather than being an essential expression of our faith leading to salvation, is an act of obedience that has nothing to do with being forgiven.  Some even go so far as to say that baptism is a work that has been contrived by human thinking and has been added to what God says someone needs to do to be saved.

Again, our disagreement comes from a misunderstanding of how our faith is to be expressed in order to be saved.  The Bible teaches clearly that the one who has faith in Christ Jesus must repent of his sins in order to be saved.  Luke 24:44-47, Acts 2:36-38.  Although changing our minds about our sins is something we are to do, it is not a work of merit but rather an expression of our faith (confidence and trust) in Jesus that God has commanded us to do if we are to receive forgiveness of sins.  If we do not believe and trust enough in Him to repent, we will not be forgiven of sins.

Further, we learn that in order to be forgiven, we must believe enough to confess that we believe Jesus is the Son of God.  This is borne out in the account of the Ethiopian Eunuch.  Act 8:26-40.  Although our faith must lead us to confess Him before others, this does not mean that we are earning our salvation but we are simply displaying our faith in the way God commands so that His grace may be dispensed to us.

Finally, the big point of disagreement.  We are taught that our faith must lead us to be immersed in water in order to be forgiven.  Acts 2:36-38, Mark 16:15-16.   Just as in the other conditions, baptism too is also an expression of faith to be done by those who have confidence and trust in Jesus to forgive them of their sins.   Notice in these passages how baptism, like repentance and confession, is inescapably tied to faith in Jesus.

GAL 3:26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. GAL 3:27 For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. GAL 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. GAL 3:29 And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise.

COL 2:11 and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ; COL 2:12 having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised up with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. COL 2:13 And when you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions, COL 2:14 having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us and which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.

It is clear that unless our faith leads us to repent of our sins, confess Him to be the Son of God and be immersed in water, we will not receive forgiveness of sins!  Why did God choose to do it this way?  I have no idea, but I trust in Him to lead me into the truth about salvation and every other aspect of my life.  Why do you, as well as so many, try to drive a wedge between faith on the one hand and baptism on the other?   Would you drive the same wedge between faith and repentance or faith and confession?  Please soberly and honestly and humbly consider these things.  Your soul is at stake.

In regard to the thief on the cross, please go to the first quesion on this page.

Finally, let us allow ourselves to accept what God includes within the scope of faith and not exclude anything that He includes for us to do to show our trust in Him.   Heb. 11:1, 6.  Contact Gary

Question 9. In your explanation of what is required of us in order to be saved, you seem to insist upon baptizing.  But, to my knowledge, none of the twelve were baptized.  Would you say that they were not saved?

Answer No, I would not say that the apostles were not saved.

You and I both know that one of the twelve, Judas Iscariot, was not saved -- he hanged himself.

Christ Jesus stated:

Mark 16:16 16      He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.   (KJV)

Mr. Hunt did not state that; I did not make that rule; the Son of God stated it.

Peter, by inspiration of the Holy Spirit, stated:

1 Pet 3:21 21      The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:   (KJV)

And Peter was guided into all truth, as promised by Christ Jesus speaking to His Apostles:

John 16:13 13      Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.    (KJV)

You know that one of the Apostles, howbeit not one of the twelve, Paul, formerly called Saul, was baptized, for Luke records, speaking of Saul's conversion:

Acts 22:16 16      And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.   (KJV)

And this scripture also points out an important fact about baptism.  It is necessary to wash away our sins.  What is it that will condemn us in the judgment day?  Our sin.  We have a problem, and we need to solve it; we need to have our sin washed away.  And we do that in baptism.

You know that we are saved by the sacrifice of Christ Jesus upon the cross.

Paul explains how we "connect" to that atoning blood:

Rom 6:3-5 3       Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? 4       Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 5       For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:    (KJV)

And we could look at many many other passages, but I think these few that we have seen are adequate to establish the truth in Christ Jesus' statement in Mark 16:16 (as if He needed our help to support His statement!).

Now that we know that baptism is necessary for salvation, let's look at   "But, to my knowledge, none of the twelve were baptized."

There are a lot of things that happend in Christ Jesus' life that we don't know about:

John 20:30-31 30      And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book: 31      But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.   (KJV)

Look at the descriptions of Paul's missionary journeys in Acts.  Luke left out a lot of detail.  He recorded what we need to know to understand what the Holy Spirit wants us to understand, but left out the "small stuff".

God told His people that there are certain things not revealed, that we don't need to know about or worry about:

Deut 29:29 29      The secret things belong unto the LORD our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law.   (KJV)

And Paul by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit explained that God has revealed everything that we need to know:

2 Tim 3:16-17 16      All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17      That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.   (KJV)

Note here that it doesn't matter what I think about baptism, it doesn't matter what Gary Hunt thinks about baptism, and it doesn't matter what Charlie Armstrong thinks about baptism.  What matters most is what God and His Son Christ Jesus think about baptism.   And how are we going to know what God and Christ think on the subject?  By reading and studying His revealed will, His Holy Scriptures.

That is why, in the discussion presented above, I have not given you a lot of "I think this or that", but plain passages from the Holy Scriptures -- that we both "may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works."

I am confident that the Apostles were baptized for the remission of their sins; to have their sins washed away.  And I am confident that most of them were saved.  Contact David

Question 10. About baptism; It is my understanding that ONLY the Blood of Jesus can wash away my sins, and that Baptism is done in obedience to God after I have accepted Jesus as my Savior. In that, through our baptism it is symbolic to the death and resurection of Jesus Christ...  After being Born Again we are "dead" to our old selves, and are to now "walk in the Newness of Life" through Jesus Christ our Lord. It is also a public confession of our Faith. Jesus stated to the theif on the cross that this day HE would see him in Paradise. I believe Christ has the Power to Save those that are on their "dying bed". I am in no means disputing the command of Baptism. I believe this to be the True Word of God. I believe that the moment we call upon the name of Jesus our Salvation is Eternally secure for no one, or no thing, has the Power to take me from My Father which is in Heaven, nor the strength to overpower and defeat the Blood of Jesus.

Answer Our disagreement comes from the fact of how we are to respond to the blood of Jesus and when, in our response, the blood of Jesus cleanses us from our sins. Your view, as well as that of many others, says that the blood of Jesus cleans us when we ask (with repentance) Jesus to come into our hearts and become our Lord. You cite the thief on the cross to prove your point.

However, the Bible is clear. We are not forgiven (cleansed by the blood of Jesus) until we, after hearing the gospel, repent of our sins, confess His name before men and are baptized (in water) in His name. At that point, we are raised up to a new life having been cleansed by the blood of Jesus. Note Romans 6:1-7 below.

Romans 6:1 What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace might increase?

Romans 6:2 May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it?

Romans 6:3 Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death?

Romans 6:4 Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, in order that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.

Romans 6:5 For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall be also in the likeness of His resurrection,

Romans 6:6 knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, that our body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin; Romans 6:7 for he who has died is freed from sin.

You say baptism is a mere symbol but Paul plainly t4ells us what happens when we engage in this "symbolic" action. We die, are buried and then are raised up to a new life, having been forgiven (by the blood of Jesus) of all our sins. This does not occur until we have been baptized. If it does happen before, then baptism makes no sense whatsoever. For example, if we are already alive in our new lives in Christ, then we are buried in baptism, what sense does that make?

As Paul was praying in Damascus, a disciple came and tole him what he must do to be saved.

Acts 22:16 'And now why do you delay? Arise, and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on His name.'

What washed away his ins? Certainly, it was the blood of Jesus! But, without Paul's responding by faith in being baptized, he would not have received the benefits of His blood. Rev. 1:5, Col. 2:11-14.

After we become Christians, the blood of Jesus continues to cleanse us as we continue to respond in obedient faith as God directs.

1 John 1:7 but if we walk in the light as He Himself is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.

1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

It is sad that people follow the misguided teachings of others instead of simply looking at the Bible and letting it determine what our actions should be in regard to salvation. Yes, we are saved by the blood of Jesus if we respond by obedient faith according to His Word! This include being baptized and to exclude it is just as sinful as to exclude repentance or anything else God has told us to do by faith in order to be saved. Please read carefully Acts 2 and consider these things. Your soul hangs in the balance.  Contact Gary

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